TSIP, Arduino, Data Conversion and the F9P

Hello, I started a project 2 years ago that led me down one hell of a learning curve. I documented most of it on the EMLID forum but I have decided to move most of the information here as I continue the project, now that it is very F9P based.

EMLID Ez150 Success

NMEA to TSIP converter

This first post is a condensed version of the original thread, its going to be long, but more action packed and I will be updating my progress here.

The original project that started this was to help another friend who used Trimble RTK, trying to get a personal cellular Base Station for far less than $25K. The objective was to do exactly what @torriem finally figured out how to do. Before this I thought GPS guidance was a valuable but overpriced tool that I would never use much and knew zero really about it.

I was roped into this project by my friend because I had SCADA network experience, and do industrial instrumentation control and PLC programming. So he thought I might be useful :smile:. It turned into one massive hobby.

I eventually ended up figuring out how to get his cellular base completed, but also ended up with a couple Emlid M2’s in the process.

IMG_7990
Look at the happiness on this mans face, he owns his own base station. Not paying $1200/year/reciever will make you this happy too!

A old farmer sold me a used box of “not sure if it works, pretty sure this one does not work” Ez Guide 150 equipment for $250. I custom installed this system on my John Deere 3038e. After trying use WAAS to cut my lawn I found though it could drive straighter than I could, with only 72" equipment it was pretty miserable to use. Even on a good day, 7 Sats, I needed about a foot of overlap. The old L1 receiver would loose signal pretty regular too.

But reading its user manual found it could take NMEA GPGGA, and GPVTG only at 38400bps and 5Hz, no extra sentences, no extra GN talker codes, just like an old Trimble 132 receiver output.

The EMLID output NMEA :cloud_with_lightning:, but two problems. The first the NMEA all had GN talker code, and it output all the NMEA sentences possible. The 150 rejected this input outright.

So I searched for a workaround and found “shipmodul”. It was able to sort NMEA sentences and change talker codes. All for the low low price of $210. And it worked!

IMG_7911

LotsofSats
NMEA YEAH!

************* If you have the F9P you can just configure it to change the talker codes, and output just GPGGA and GPVTG 5hz. **************

FrontMountedAntenna

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IMG_8004

Now I was able to cut grass, using dual band rtk, off a base station in my own yard. The old Ez 150 smartened right up and drives extremely straight and reliable after tuning. It still is a little wobbly at the start of the line, but I think that is due to its very much older gyroscope / compass. I notice it most going straight north on that 0-359deg crossover.

30kmcellular

The EMLID M2’s fix fast in seconds and work extremely well beside tall trees even off a cellular base 30km away. But at EMLIDs heart is the Ublox F9P.

Lookforthetallysman M2Uncorrected2

So after lending this converter to a farmer that I help he was hooked, The Stieger still uses a ez150, “but will it work with the Ez250 on the seeder?” No :(… the 250 will only will allow guidance from TSIP data.

So could I even get TSIP to work with the 150? After much searching I found right on Trimbles website the 1999 TSIP manual, and a suite of information and programs for testing TSIP. (A major reason i like Trimble more than DEERE GPS, no secrets) I also invested in a RS232 serial tap and monitor program so that I could see the active data.

Much to my surprise TSIP for the 150 consisted mostly of 2 NMEA repeated sentences inside some HEX data structure. Using the Ez 250 to send data to the 150 I was able to see that this was not that much data. but how do I change it?

QQCT1279

So at this time I find @Torriems much matured 1008 injector, and the man codes with notes I can understand. I decide I should give C a go. Also at this time I decide it would be cool to have a colour screen for guidance and then i started looking at pricing… Even Ez250 pricing :money_with_wings: :money_with_wings: :money_with_wings:.

IMG_7885

The friend who I helped set up the cellular base, I visit his farm and he is moving the Ez Pilot from the seeder to the swather steering column. He looks miserable and tells me, “I am done with this re-installation every season!” but with more swearing. Then he tells me “Have you seen how good AOG is looking lately?” So I did look, watched some of @BrianTee_Admin youtube, and now I am here HAHA.

Back to TSIP. So after seeing 1008 injeckt, and many, many, many, hours of you tube videos on how to code Arduino. I finally did manage to code my first program that takes NMEA swaps talker codes, recalculates the checksum and encapsulates it in TSIP and the EZ150 allows me to start an A+ line! but not tested in the field yet, but I am pretty sure its good to go. There was some other messages being sent periodically from two way calls and responses. But just the repeating data seems to work.

IMTP3278

So onto the fully accepted challenge of getting it to work with the Ez 250. I soon find out the data structure is bizarrely different than NMEA, now using ECEF data. Many more calls and responses, configuration handshakes, a larger group of repeating messages and only a couple pieces in ASCii characters.

But experiencing the rejuvenated performance of the Ez 150 with the Emlid M2 external receiver has me convinced that this is old but definitely not obsolete equipment. It can still be useful and relevant for a very, very, long and productive life. Until it finally dies of old age, on its own terms, on the AB line of its choosing. Planned obsolescence, is killing this planet faster than anything, causing more unneeded carbon emissions and pollution than anything, just go for a walk at the Landfill.

The data of position and velocity expressed in numerical terms can only be expressed in the one true language of math, no matter how you dress it up. The F9P looks to have almost all the data required to complete this project. But you have to parse the original data, swap data type, swap endianess (sometimes twice), calculate new checksums, check validity, encode the new structure, and output it all in real time. It sounds bad but it takes quite a few hours to move just a few bytes of data the first time.

IMG_8808

As well as new coding I shrunk my original converter.

IMG_8856

So as of recently I have been able to move almost one full sentence through. Also working on a snappy looking 3D printed housing so I can move it from machine to machine.

I will be doing my updates in this forum from now on.

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Sorry in advance for the blurry pictures, there is no auto resize on this forum so its hard to know exactly how small to go.

Its a balmy -25C and only getting colder so putting in some serious coding time. I finished all the repeating sentences except for this one… It is kicking my butt.

Position Sigma Information Report, I cannot find the apples to apples information in respect to ecef in the ublox. I have a feeling since the position is already calculated I may be able to chocolate fudge these numbers to appear within tolerance.

IMG_8951

I looked at my base station and it cannot talk TSIP, as even for Trimble TSIP has become obsolete. But it can talk GSOF and these fields exist.

IMG_8954

I tried connecting to the 250 with the Arduino to see if it would at least populate some fields like the 150 would do, but no luck, it really really wants that handshake. Like sooooooooooooo badly wants that handshake.

So this leaves me with a huge decision to make;

  1. Build an inline chip (:tractor: more power) setup that goes between the 252 and 250 that just injects the new RTK position information and lets any old 252 deal with the rest of the less important info. I think this would be viable enough to do and might be a good way to move forward on many other and newer receivers. Costs $60 DUE + $250 Ublox vs $3500 unlock?

  2. Make the Trimble OEM BD series backwards compatible to TSIP? Costs $60 DUE + $1500 Trimble vs $3500 unlock… Nah I still don’t like this option already gave Trimble too much money.

3.Keep hammering away at Ublox to TSIP no matter how crazy the math gets. Costs $60 DUE + $250 Ublox + My sanity vs $3500 unlock?

4.Stop all together and just make AOG better? Forget Trimble and Deere ever existed.

Where to go from here?
  • 1 Build an inline “CHIP”
  • 2 Make a Trimble OEM board backwards compatible
  • 3 Let the Ublox chaos continue
  • 4 Just start coding cool stuff for AOG

0 voters

My original plan was option 1, and this is the route I took with my ITC receiver. In that case it turned out to be significantly easier than I thought. But tsip is more complicated. But you’ve already done enough already to make that possible here. The due has enough serial ports to do that if we can’t figure out this sigma thing.

I think I have enough done to get option 1 working pretty swiftly. Its not quite as slick as I would like but if it means no more WAAS in the combine this fall its the route to go. If you already have ITC done, When this works I will trade you.

The number conversions are a bit much in TSIP. Also found my Chinese DUE clone is not up to the task. Hopefully the DUE cores are. Currently running pass-though on the Genuino Arduino. I have everything except to have the Reciever trigger the converted ECEF sentences from the UBX done.

But really I started C in October this is not rocket appliances.

Pretty impressive for only recently picking up C!

Here’s something that might relate to the sigma issue:
https://portal.u-blox.com/s/question/0D52p00008HKECr/how-do-i-read-the-standard-deviation-of-positon-error-in-ubx-protocol

I believe sigma is the same as standard deviation in this TSIP message. I’m not really sure how necessary it is to steering. Maybe a fake number could be used.

I have programmed ladder logic for quite some time, its a lot more like Lego. But it does deal with similar stuff ints, dints, longs ect. Communications, but not exactly packet by packet, byte by byte, is part of my day job, especially 232, 485, and TCP. So a little advantage vs coming in stone cold to it.

Thanks for the information, I am sure we can get it figured out 100% ublox… eventually. But if chipping it will at least get it working to start, I’ll take it.

My parts for AOG are almost all here, so I want to take a good stab at this before i am lost in @BrianTee_Admin 's world.

I am probably a bit biased since I own a fair amount of trimble products but I have always wanted the ability to be able to use different receiver.

I really like Trimbles gear and Deere’s for that matter.

But the same here I really would like to use their guidance controller with a different receiver as well. Trimble receivers do not hold any premium value for me after using the EMLID M2 / Ublox F9P.

But I have a feeling they will never embrace sharing, and lock down their equipment further. But really becoming less accessible is a bad move.

But I think the biggest insult to farmers is the Multi Unlock system, and massive yearly RTK fee. Deere wants $9500 just to unlock RTK and that wont let you use it until you pay the subscription. How many Ublox + AOG systems can you buy for that.

Deere bricking the ITC is a recent shot over the bow for equipment owners.
If all the satellites get changed with AOG, you just get a new affordable Ublox and your back going again.

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If companies respond to this by locking down the system even more, then AOG (or derivative) just becomes that much more attractive. We don’t have turnkey AOG yet, but it’s getting easier every year to put something together. I figure my work to make get other receivers to work with the old brown box iTC system is a stop gap measure for me. And same for the Trimble systems. This is hardware I already have and it’s paid for, so if I can use it I will. In the meantime, I do want to play more with AOG. Next winter I’ll have a warm shop to play in so here’s hoping. I’m certainly following @CommonRail’s work to get AOG playing CAN systems. An exciting time to be in this field.

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Its almost turnkey enough already, I think as long as there is a AOG systems integrator in every small town it would be enough. You can build it yourself, or get the local guru down the road to help you out. The biggest gripe I hear from farmers about GPS systems is that the local dealerships do not really support the Deere or Trimble systems well. Its always two choices if something goes wrong; figure it out yourself, or upgrade to the newest most expensive system.

What would you suggest for software to take a look at the data running between 2 Trimble devices? I assume a hardware tap is for looking at data moving both directions between 2 devices? Can you see anything meaningful with just some software and a serial port?

I have software called “io ninja” that has a serial tap. I cannot see can bus messages with it.

It shows the hex data that is sent or received by the rs 232 port.

Sometimes use a 232 to usb converter if I just want to single out one side. But you will need a terminal program that shows the hex values

The trimble 1999 tsip manual is available on there website and many other places online.

TSIP com port settings are usually 115200 8 ODD 1 for ag equipment.

All sentences start with “0x10” and end with “0x10 0x03”. The first hex number after the leading 0x10, tells you the sentence you are looking at.

Then decode from there.

Finally off the phone and back to the computer.

Here is an example of TSIP from the 252, the data is all in hex, the characters are the terminal trying to translate it into Ascii, that is why it looks like gibberish. The data starts with a DLE 10, then the next number is the ID, then the data, then the ETX 10 03 which is the end cl/rf.

The data portion can be in any data format concievable; single double, integer, binary register ect

Some but not all end in a checksum, usually total sum of data not including the DLE/ETX, ID, or checksum. the checksums are sent in 0x0000 format. But sometimes they are Xor checksums like NMEA.

Its a real mish mash to work with, and now is basically obsolete, Trimble has and switched to GSOF.

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This is only a few seconds of Data

1 Like

Isn’t it easier to apply for trimble nmea from f9p? I have an fmx1000 model as a receiving source, you can specify port A with nmea data

Will it auto steer with it? Currently the only Trimble that will steer with NMEA is the ez150.

Others will accept NMEA but only for mapping, and you have to steer manually.

TSIP is the paywall from ez 250 onward.

2 Likes

Not for steering. NMEA source works for mapping only.

I am trying to catch some of the data going between an ez150 and a navII controller. I am wondering if the data going out of the ez150 to the navII controller is simpler than later models. You can actually run autopilot with gps coming from the ez150 built in gps. I was thinking that data might be easier to understand but that route could come with its own set of problems even if the data structure is simpler.

2 Likes

Its still probably TSIP, I found the wiring harness. It looks like there is no PPS signal which is a bonus.

image

But then I find this tidbit;

EZ-Guide 500 receiver onlyThe EZ-Guide 500 communicates with the Yield Monitor through the RS232 port and receives NMEA positions from the NavController II.Set Connection Type to RS232 and then set the NavController II from the EZ-Guide 500 Lightbar to output the following NMEA Messages:GGA & VTG at 1 HzPort Setting: 38400 bpsParity: None

So this Jargon is telling me the screen in the combine gets NMEA from the NAVII, the NAVII gets NMEA (but I am sure not in the form you would think) from the 500. But what is the configuration between the 150/250/500 and the NAVII is a good question. The NMEA may be straight pass through, and other information will run the steering.

But unfortunately my 150 does not seem to dump out any data on the Autopilot setting, I think its waiting for something that would come back from the autopilot.

I can almost guarantee this, though it will still resemble the gibberish above. It may contain some more ascii characters that will make it much easier. My only wonder is how the error handling works on the NAVII. The 150 quite bluntly has none which is awesome. What I mean is on disconnection, or in waiting for a response that does not arrive, from a request from the controller, it will it ignore the fault, not hault the process.

If you do not have a serial tap you can listen in by putting the rx wire of a 232 converter, to one wire recording data in that direction. Then the other wire recording data in the other direction that is how i first started seeing the 150’s data. You can have multiple rx devices listening off one tx pin, but you cannot have multiple devices trying to transmit to one rx.

I’m pretty sure the NAV II generates the NMEA itself, based on the GPS position (perhaps TSIP, but could also be CAN), fused with the pitch and roll data from the accelerometers and gyros in the NAV II unit itself, and translated to the axle position. I know this is the case because on my sprayer the receiver is on the roof of the cab, but the NMEA out of the NAV II that feeds my Capstan Pinpoint system is already adjusted for terrain and also relocated to the back of the sprayer, so in Capstan I can set the offsets to zero.

EDIT: I might be mistaken… the NMEA that feeds capstan comes from the back of the Pro 700, but I know it’s terrain compensated, and that happens inside the NAVII.

That is most likely just instructions on how Trimble recommends to setup GPS output to a third-party device when using a navII controller. Depending on the display and firmware version the only option for NMEA output may be the navII controller diagnostic port. For several versions of the fmx 1000 firmware, the only place to pull NMEA data when using a NAVII was from the navII connector even though the fmx still had 3 empty ports that could be configured. Trimble eventually corrected this but the point is that depending on the configuration the only option may be to connect to the navII controller rather than the display.

What I found interesting looking at the navII controller and some wiring diagrams today is that the navII controller actually has 3 different serial connections. One is for the display, one is for gps, and one is for output/diagnostics. What I found noteworthy about this is that to my knowledge only the 150 inputs gps data on the display serial port (500 might too haven’t checked). The 252, 262, 372, CFX-750, and FMX-1000 all input gps data on the GPS serial port.

Is there any good way to figure out the baud rate if you are not sure? I suspect it may be at 38400bps and updating at 5Hz. Some of the menus in the display seemed to indicate that the GPS with autopilot is at 5hz. I have the connection side down and am receiving the data just not sure what to do with it. I understand the basics of why the terminal data looks the way it does due to the ASCII conversion. I assume you are logging the data to a file and then looking at it? I am only listing on the output of the display with a serial adapter for now.