I would like to ask, if anyone knows what happens to my insurance for the tractor and the road legal when applying a hydraulik valve. To install a hydraulik valve you have to cut the steering circuit and put some parts in between… What happens if I have an accident on public roads
Hi there. Not familiar with German laws as I live in Romania but I think it’s pretty straight forward similar to my country … if something goes bad on the public road and the tractor is investigated by experts such as those from TUV or Dekra and they find that it was not technically fit to be on public roads, it will be your fault regardless if you modified it or you didn’t repaired it properly. If during the yearly (or every 2 years) technical inspection such a modification is found, you, as a owner could face problems as you interfered with the steering mechanism and since the change was not performed by an authorized service, the right to drive on public roads could be canceled. In my opinion you should never:
Always remember, safety first.
Not sure about Germany or Romania but in my (EU country) common sense is applied. If the tractor steering is modified but built safely (as can be declared by an expert) and properly disabled for driving on a public road (manual valves, perhaps just a switch like on OEM implementations) and it is obvious that the steering system had nothing to do with the accident, I’m sure the incident would be handled just like no steering modifications were made.
I know some countries have a strict approach, if a person does not wear a helmet at a construction site and steps on a nail, his/her insurance does not cover the incident (because his/her behaviour indicates an attitude issue). In practise I believe even this story isn’t true.
If an accident happens because of a steering issue, that obviously leads to detailed inspections of the modifications but I’m sure most of the implementations that we’ve seen here, would pass the inspection. After all, there are many known weak points from the factory that have caused accidents, loss of steering because wear and tear here and there, also because of design flaws at the factory. It isn’t too difficult to judge when the farmer’s modifications are “as safe as they can be” and this would be enough.
Don’t car owners in Germany and Romania service their old cars (perhaps not in Germany, not many old cars there), including suspension, steering joints and brakes and that is considered acceptable even if they had no qualification for the task?
I would ask if the steering valve assembly can be called a modification of the steering system! In fact, it is a separate system which, when the valves are turned off, is completely separated from the steering system and does not interfere with it in any way.
Often the hydraulic system in tractors works on one pump and basically the whole hydraulic system is connected to each other, in the extreme case connecting the front loader to the hydraulic system could be considered a modification of the steering system which is absurd!
The modification would be the installation of e.g. an orbitrol with different parameters, replacement of the actuator with a thinner one, steering joints for some other type, etc.
When mounting the autoster, we plug in the hydraulic system and modify it, but only when working in the field. When driving on the road, our modifications are cut off and do not interfere with steering and I would stick to it 
Thanks for your point of view!
I plan to install a hydraforce SP10-57C proportional valve on two tractors (both LS hydraulics) and an additional 4/2 valve on one of the tractors as it has an reactive orbitrol (I hope this is the right englisch word… the steering wheel turns/reacts when you hit a stone or something with the wheels).
Do you think from the security side of view it’s enough to add a manual electric lever on the power line for the motor controller (cytron) and the relais for the 6/2 valve? Or is it better to add manual valves on the steering lines (or the pressure line)?
I plan to also use the steering for slurry spreading. As I changing between road and field all the time it would be annoying to use a manual valve outside the cabin every time I leave the field… But I totally agree with you: Safety first!
I tried to cover myself as much as possible, I added to lockable (two fingers required to release) switches in the cab, one cuts power to Cytron, and other cuts power to 6/2 valve (isolating the steering system totally)…I also added manual lever valves on both L / R hoses to mechanically fully isolate them, do I use them everytime I leave the field…ill just leave that there. But I feel with 6/2 valve fully isolated, AND power cut to the cytron, is would be impossible for anything to interefere at this point anyway. No more so than in any stock autosteer system anyway…
But obviously, its not officially correct, and imagine would be a problem in most countries these days.
I think the 6/2 valve is a more reliable disconnection than manually operated valves. You can imagine that something, e.g. a stalk, stick, etc. will cause such a manual valve to be moved. The fact that an electric valve properly cut off from the power supply suddenly gets electricity is less likely.
In the latest factory solutions, manufacturers give up orbitrols by mounting only the encoder on the steering wheel that controls the solenoid valves and this is in my opinion a big risk because all you need is a power failure, e.g. a short circuit and we lose control.
OK, so to summarize it a bit, if we apply a self-built hydraulik steering system, we could never be 100 % safe against the law etc. especially in some European countries (Germany). But a solution for example with a 6/2 valve which gets manually completely isolated from the power source is in most cases even more secure than what the manufacturers give us.
I think I will go the same way as @darrenjlobb described: manual levers cutting the power from 6/2 valve and Cytron and additionally manual lever valves in the steering lines to use when the automatic steering isn’t used for longer times and just for having a better feeling with the whole thing.
I have 100% confidence in my system that is is safe, there is no way anything I have done can fail really. But can this stand up legally? No probably not…hence AOG is for fun only, and shouldnt be used in a real tractor. I think from a legal point of view, the motor is probably a better option, as it can be totally physically “removed” during road movements…
811/5000
Hello, in Germany and in Austria it is not allowed. If the police catch you you pay a fine how high I can not tell you but certainly not too little. The whole thing works only because you are allowed to drive on your own premises (yard, field, …) with basically all driving, roads, dirt roads, foreign land must not be used. (i am from Austria)
If it is not TÜV (Association for Technical Inspection, must check every vehicle and Parts to be approved for roads) You could try to get a single permit but I strongly doubt that they fell in love with it.
approved, it does not matter which type of attachment, for example front hydraulics, … problematic. Intervention in the control system is much more serious
Because as an example, if you sit someone who is 14 years old in the tractor and only drive on their own land, it is legally permitted. However, if, for example, a dog gets under the wheels, a garden fence is knocked over, let alone worse, there is a problem again because it is considered negligence and the owner is fully liable and of course the insurance will also get out.
The only thing I could think of how to “avoid” it would be a quick release system that can be quickly removed and installed. You would, however, have to stake it out every time you basically enter foreign grounds / streets. And in the event of an accident, it is of course also difficult
Oder auf Deusch wenn es dir lieber ist:
Hallo, in Deuschland und auch in Österreich ist es nicht erlaubt. Falls die Polizei dich erwischt zahlst du Strafe wie hoch kann ich dir auch nicht sagen aber sicherlich nicht zu wenig. Das ganze funktioniert nur dadurch das man auf seinen Eigenen Gelände (Hof, Acker,…) mit grundsätzlich allen Fahren darf, Straßen,Feldwege fremde Grundstücke dürfen nicht benutzt werden.
Wenn es nicht Tüv genemigt ist ist es sowieso egal welcher anbau auch zB Fronthydraulik,… Problematisch. Eingriff ins steuerungssystem sind wesentlich gravierender.
Man könnte Probieren eine Einzelgenehmigung zu bekommen aber ich bezweifle stark das Sie so etwas gehemingen in unseren Bürokratie verliebten …
Das einzige was mir einfallen würde wie man es “vermeiden” kann wäre ein schnellverschlusssystem das man das Ganze schnell aus und einbauen kann. Man müsste allerdings jedesmal wenn man grundsätzlich wenn man Fremden Grund / Straßen betritt es abstecken. Und bei Unfällen ist es natürlch auch noch schwierig
Weil als Beispiel wenn man jemanden der 14 Jahre alt in den Traktor sitzt und nur auf dem Eigenen Grund fährt ist es Gezetlich erlaubt. Allerdings wenn zum Beispiel ein Hund unter die Räder kommt, ein Gartenzaun umgefahren wird geschweige denn noch schlimmeres, gibt es sehrwohl wieder ein Problem weil es als Fahrlässigkeit gilt und der Besitzer wieder voll in die Haftung kommt und natürlich die Versicherung auch aussteigen wird.
It is important to be aware of the local law and the interpretation and one should obey the rules. However I’m asking are those rules reasonable. Which one is more dangerous, an inexperienced 14 year old driver causing an accident on private premises with a legal tractor or an experienced farmer driving a properly built AOG system with hydraulic steering that has been carefully disabled for public roads?
Our Fendt OEM steering had a havoc when it was brand new. The front wheels started to fly from left to right and back at full speed and bolts got broken from the front wheel fenders. It was caused by some known fault on the steering hydraulics, TÜV approved parts, untouched since they left from the factory. Have to admit that this happened on a field road at low speed (max 25 km/h when auto-steer is on). On a public road auto-steer would not be allowed and the incident would not have happened, or could it happen?
Safety is important but if lawyers are allowed promote safety, I doubt the outcome would be the best.
Also funny how EU rules are interpreted so differently. I come from a country that tends to read EU rules to the letter and add a few requirements of their own on top but we seem to be flexible for tractors and their implements on the road.
Sorry for necromancing, but this thread is the only one I could find on this legal issue which I consider existencially important.
I’m not a lawyer, and this is in no way legal advice, just a humble question into the community.
I think we must clearly separate legal from technical security considerations.
Of course, you and we try best to avoid accidents.
But that’s of no use if the judge is not even asking you and me for formal reasons.
As far as I remember the legal situation, any modification in the steering system voids the admission to drive in public roads. At least that was German law in earlier times, and I’m quite sure that this is the same in all over EU now. Maybe only, that in other countries the authorities are not that pedantic about it.
Nevertheless, when there is an accicent with serious personal injury (forget the dog and the fence, and even forget some hundred €€ for fines), the insurance companies always will try to check for recourse (“regress”). Its part of their standard procedure. And they have good and many more lawyers than we have.
I’ve learned that (very!) large repair corporations even deny to produce hydraulic replacement hoses when they know that they go into the steering system. Odds are that they do so since they lost cases when they were held liable for accidents already.
@baraki , have you ever checked this?
Let’s compare the situation with the better known (since larger) motorcycle market. If you change handle bar, brake lining, brake pipe, brake disc etc for non genuine ones, usully the supplier gives you an ABE (generic approval??) whre it is listed that this particular part is tested for your type of bike.
Just compare those brake pipes:
I think the best for AgOpenGPS would be if @baraki, Keya and other suppliers of the systems attached to steering would strive for such and ABE. No clue what it costs, but I’d start asking my personal TÜV-Guy. Or the Kraftfahrbundesamt. Recently bought a polish car trailer (at a price below a baraki valve block), and I learned there are similiar offices in Poland as well.
Until then, and for any selfmade solution, if we want to comply to law when we leave our own premises, we’d need a “single permit” (Einzelabnhame), as @AndreasTT already mentioned, or “individual acceptance test report” (leo.org translation). I don’t think that it is that difficult nor expensive, if we go to the certifiers that use to work with farming, not to the TÜV at Berlin city.
And this “Einzelabnahme” is the place where you and we have to convince the (technically competent) certifier that our system is safely deactivated on the road etc…
May be that the first time, it may be a bit tedious, but I think it get’s easier with standardised solutions as the ones from baraki or keya.
May be you need another couple of €€ to get the modifications entered into the vehicles admission papers. I’ve once done it by adding a pneumatic brake system to one of my old Fendt GT and I think it was not much more than 100 € overall. Quite fair compared to be chased off your farm in the light of 100.000s and even millions in case of personal injuries.
The situation may be a little different when you stay on your own premises. Then your consideration regarding best care may be ok. I’d even hope that the burden of proof for security violation lies with the party claiming compensation.
And I’d expect similiar in case of an accident, if we have a correct certification from a “TÜV-like” agency. But if this is missing, I think that not only the burden of proof is shifted to the operator (and the shop who has performed the manipulation, and the supplier of the system). I think we may not even have the chance to be asked for proof.
I’d expect the judge to say “well, i’ve no clue regarding the technical details, so I had to ask a learned technician, but why should I if there is the easy formal way out”
So as a conclusion, I’d really urge the community to act in that question.
Anybody with me?
Would the whole system not need certifying?
For example the Baraki valve, if you ‘invert relays’ in the AOG software, to invert the relays on a new sprayer for example, it also inverts the lock valve on the Baraki valve if you’re using the AIO pin 7.
If someone also turns the pressure sensor off, you can have a situation where the steering wheel is locked solid when autosteer is disengaged.
Perhaps be better if the ‘whole system’ to certify, was a 6/2 isolation valve with mechanical locking rocker switch, all designed to fail safe. A Clearly labelled switch for highway/off-highway.
What you connect beyond the 6/2 valve is your business.
sure.
keep the security relevant part as small and as simple as possible.
I’d even try to connect the valve Tee only to the A/B (works of course only vor non-reactive orbitrols), so the way to the orbitrol never ever gets cut of.
But we are alredy in solutions, again.
My intention were to first find the right guy to talk to: the certified technicion who may stamp us a certificate.
Does a trimble system aftermarkt kit that was installed by vantage agrometius in germany get a tuv clearence? Or agleader or raven?
Just got a message phrasing “über 21er”
So I infer that they mean §21 of STVZO
this were the genuine legal text
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvzo_2012/__21.html
and here just a couple of ± well known cert companies offering that service
“Ob nach Umbauten, bei Importen oder bei fehlenden Fahrzeugdokumenten …”
so for sure we are on the right track
Is it ok when I don’t translate all the German stuff?
Of course for specific questions I can try so, but for a rough orientation, browser translate should be OK, and many of our Dutch neighbours have a good command of our language, anyway.
Just learned that pricing is according to effort - have been afraid of that.
So maybe sbd. might be able to glean into the documentation the “great ones” prepare for the certifiers to keep effort in reasonable limits…
But what happens if your valve breaks down hydraulic propvalve broken what ever. Can you change it to the one thats is on stock like other brand. Or do you need to back to tuv because it not the one on certificate? Just a brain fart… i dont know but i hear tuv is really harsh
no clue.
My Friend the certifier promised me to ask a colleague who is doing §21.
… but this may take time …
I’d hope that it were ours to supply information.
They just check whether it meets their expectations for safety (which I think may even differ from certifier to certifier).
So if we say “product number 1232435346245234545 from FooBarCo” instead of “ISO ABC type” it were our own fault when we sewed the skirt to narrow.
I’ve sent him the drawing from this post
so the AOG can never block the orbitrol from the cylinder.
And proposed to add manually operated cutoffs between the tee and the valve block.
Complemented by operating instructions that forbid to drive on public roads when those cutoffs are open.
So best what can happen that he forwards that to his colleague and he says “sure”, then we were fine. 
(as you may know, hope is the last thing to die…)
I’m sure there are cert offices in the Netherlands as well 
So, if just by accident, we might find some supplier of valves, may be not that overburdened short of drowning in his earned success, who is pushing the procject of certification?
